@gemlog @scroom @rysiek I do think, replacing Office with Open/LibreOffice and handling E-Mails with Thunderbird is the key to success. After that non-techie people don't care which OS they run on. Add DigiKam, Riot, Mastodon, and other stuff and they will be happy. Except brainwashed ones, angry they must learn something new. :-)

@kmj @scroom @rysiek Other than that one manager, I find people are pretty o/s agnostic. Especially at work.

Also, in the workplace you don't have to contend with games not working, which ties many ppl to windows at home.

Long ago I realized no on actually *needed* java on their winpc. So I took it off everywhere. PITA to update all the time. 1 secretary complained: games wouldn't work ;-)

Phones are another matter. apple fan boiz and gurlz. Same for (back in the day) blackberry fans.

@gemlog @scroom @rysiek in regards of phones I have to state, that IOS is running here too. I tried one Samsung Tablet, running Android 6/7, but this is unusable for Business Phones/Tablet. I tried to set it up without Google, Fdroid only. Was partially possible, but in background things are still running, trying to call home. Firewall without root only tries to block outoing and don't start from time to time, so things can call home again. Librem5 hopefully clears this for us.

@kmj @scroom @rysiek
Yes. Not only the brand loyalty. Phones pose a technical problem. I had high hopes of a pure-play linux phone a few times, but... hasn't panned out yet.

@kmj @gemlog @scroom yes, exactly. Plus great helpdesk to deal with the issues as they appear (and they will appear), so that users do not feel the need to switch back to a more familiar environment.

@gemlog @scroom @rysiek time is on FOSS side, but for sure if marketing budget comes in, somebody wiill heavily try to let people run stuff they sale. Interesting side is that more and more Administrators knowing what they do are showing up. These educated guys will replace the clicki-clicki guys. If Amins know what they do, they love setting things up in Linux/BSD. The ones only know where they clicked, without idea why its working now, will be step by step replaces with OS Upgrades. :-)

@kmj @scroom @rysiek Seen it the other way tho. At one of the larger places i did with ~100 staff they interviewed several local IT firms to take over from me. I gave them network diagrams and docs. I explained how DRBD etc worked and they had a lot of custom scripts to automate projects and field work.
Within 3 months they nuked it all, and msw'd the place. Also, I gave them the db and public_html to host in my stead. Hacked and defaced in a week.
Even 25 yrs out I rejoice seeing linux on a pc.

@gemlog @scroom @rysiek i still think it will change. to much of these excel-sheet managers out there and they all have the companies leaned to the max. only thing the spare more money and hide their problem to run a company the serious way, is to reduce software costs with FOSS. i am sure this will happen soon.

@kmj @scroom @rysiek I truly hope you are right kmj.

Also, by happy coincidence I just read this post because of @jotbe

https://chaos.social/@clerie/100282384116234580

LineageOS https://lineageos.org/
Maybe there's hope! :-)

@kmj @gemlog @scroom problem is that switching is a considerable up-front cost that needs good justification. Just "letting it slide" and paying more in the long run is easier to do in many places, sadly.

@rysiek @gemlog @scroom i agree with your not fired and upfron costs statement mostly. For me there are leaders, taking responsibility for their actions and Lemmings trying to protect their job without looking for the best for the company. Lemmings in meetings defends themselfs with "I bought what all others bought too, so I am not the one responsible." . Additionally, they throw out companies money to fullyfy their idea to defend their job as much as possible.

@kmj @gemlog @scroom sure.

My point, I guess, is that we need to get to the point that the lemmings will feel more comfortable with FLOSS than with proprietary shite.

@rysiek @kmj @scroom what more could it take as proof than pretty much EVERYthing else uses floss? Even microsoft these days.

@rysiek @kmj @gemlog @scroom step one: stop calling the audience you're trying to reach lemmings. More flies with honey.

@tw @rysiek @kmj @scroom I doubt anyone here is dumb enough to actually mount an argument with such a person using that language; it's a good point though.

It does happen that people who blindly buy into oracle, ibm, microsoft et al. are extremely unlikely to be reading this thread -- or any other about computers.

They are programmed by the advertising and the culture that arose from it. They don't seek information on a topic they are largely uninterested in other than a pay-cheque.

@gemlog @rysiek @kmj @scroom the way you refer to people privately inevitably colors your direct interactions with them. The world needs more respect.

I don't dispute the things you say many folks do. But calling them lemmings, whether they'll ever read it or not, doesn't move the conversation forward. How do we change the behaviors? How do we make F(L)OSS more appealing to them, or visible at all?

@gemlog @rysiek @kmj @scroom (and to be clear I say "you" emphatically in the plural here, not accusing anyone individually of anything, and I definitely understand the temptation of labeling like this)

@tw @rysiek @kmj @scroom I (gemlog) accepted your point and don't ... :-)
You headed me off already! Thanks!

@gemlog @rysiek @kmj @scroom English is too imprecise. :)

@tw @rysiek @kmj @scroom It is possible to use English with some precision, but we're all too damned lazy ;-)

@tw @rysiek @kmj @scroom oh gee Tim -- and i dissed your company too! (just read your bio)

@gemlog @rysiek @kmj @scroom lol Google can take it. (Most tech Googlers use Linux on the desktop, FWIW.)

@tw @rysiek @kmj @scroom No, I meant oracle.
But I *may* have been known to say unhelpful things about google ;-)
I used to use dyndns actually. But they got up my nose a few years ago, so now I give the money to cloudns.

@gemlog @rysiek @kmj @scroom oh, that company. I was long gone before they became part of Oracle. It's been over 10 years since I've been involved there, they've made lots of decisions since I haven't agreed with. :)

@tw @rysiek @kmj @scroom Yeah, I don't remember exactly what it was. Probably tried to upsell the hell out of me I imagine. These days i don't really need dynamic dns much, but I happily pay those crazy bulgarians at cloudns. Great interface, marvelous support and features. I think I could use the free version now. I just keep paying, because happy :-)
If I'm having good times (rare) I even contribute to their fav bulgarian kids charity.

@gemlog @tw @rysiek @scroom the Lemmings was from me and for sure in German I would have more words to be prezise. :-) For me this is the word to explain it best in a foreign language, but I am happy to learn new words if you have some. We have to decide between these L Administrators making decissions in companies and the L non techie users. L never was meant to be no gent, it was meant to describe the situation in short also for non english natives. :-)

@kmj @tw @rysiek @scroom I don't know if there is a polite single word for people who base their decisions on what they perceive as the main stream. Do you have one in Deutsch?

English doesn’t “borrow” from other languages: it follows them down dark alleys, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar and valuable vocabulary.

Actually, that probably won't work anyhow. Means the same as 'lemmings' :-)

Mainstream managers or purchasing agents maybe.

@gemlog @tw @rysiek @scroom not one single word, you need more words in German too. You are able to say it polite or hard. There is an real problem actually in every language, that most peoples level to react to things or respond needs the hard way, because everything else falls below of the level to be heared or seen in the masses of informations. Like if you shoot into the air, everynbody listens now, if you try to make them listen you will need lot of time. Non techies are flooded with infos

@kmj @tw @rysiek @scroom "Non techies are flooded with infos" and also:
If you ask a geek what time it is he tells you how to build a clock...
We are often part of the problem.

@rysiek @gemlog @scroom as usual they follow the masses or what they think that the masses are. we have to make them comfortable, you are 100% right. lemmings change the direction like a huge ship. but if they change nobody can stop them then in the short run.

@gemlog @kmj @scroom yeah, that's how that happens.

"nobody got ever fired for buying Microsoft software" is the attitude that needs to change.